Thinky- what makes fic well written?
Mar. 3rd, 2009 09:44 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
How do you decide that a fic is "well-written"?
I see this all the time in seek comms and elsewhere- asking for "well-written" fics and well - that just seems so generic and unspecific to me. (and actually kind of pretentious too tbqh)
Is it 'well-written' because you like it? If you don't like it does that make it not well -written?
What quantifies something as well- written? Good grammar? no typos? Long, pretentious, character studies?
I judge a fic by if I enjoy it , if it makes me think , or feel (and yes horny is a feeling :P if it's hot that totally counts), but some of my very, very favorites are probably not that "well-written" in the English major kind of way. Does that matter? Not to me.
I see this all the time in seek comms and elsewhere- asking for "well-written" fics and well - that just seems so generic and unspecific to me. (and actually kind of pretentious too tbqh)
Is it 'well-written' because you like it? If you don't like it does that make it not well -written?
What quantifies something as well- written? Good grammar? no typos? Long, pretentious, character studies?
I judge a fic by if I enjoy it , if it makes me think , or feel (and yes horny is a feeling :P if it's hot that totally counts), but some of my very, very favorites are probably not that "well-written" in the English major kind of way. Does that matter? Not to me.
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Date: 2009-03-03 03:55 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 04:01 pm (UTC)But even that I consider bad beta/bad editing/posting too soon - not bad writing . Good authors are not necessarily good grammarians. That's why publishing houses have editors- lots and lots of editors :D
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From:Actually...
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:02 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 04:05 pm (UTC)Well please do! - I really am interested in what people think about this.
As to typos- that drives me crazy too - but as I told patch - I tend to think of that as bad editing. - SO maybe people should be asking for well edited fics :D
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:04 pm (UTC)But I do agree that asking for something that is 'well-written' is very vague. What I use to define that won't be the same as what the next person uses, and it sets us all up for disappointment.
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:38 pm (UTC)I usually just offer what I liked ;D But then I'm always wondering if people are judging me for what I consider 'well-written' :P Especially since I usually don't hesitate to rec something I really enjoyed even if it wasn't perfectly executed.
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:05 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 04:10 pm (UTC)Is that what people really mean when they ask for 'well -written ' fic?
I mean if you read an early copy of -say- Crime and Punishment (just pulled that out of thin air w/e :D) and it was full of typos - would that make it badly written?
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:08 pm (UTC)I think a fic can be well written, but not necessarily good. So, you know...idk, it's kind of subjective...
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:12 pm (UTC)Again - isn't that just badly "edited"
A fic can be typo free, grammatically correct - and boring as hell
If I wrote 20 pages of say, Brendon , counting pebbles on the beach and describing each one in nauseating detail - all with perfect grammar and spelling- would it be good writing?
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:17 pm (UTC)To me, well-written means the following:
- Good enough grammar/spelling/syntax/punctuation that I don't have to re-read sentences to understand what the writer is trying to say. Language should be flowing nicely and easy to read.
- Internal consistency. Characters should not become strangers to themselves half-way through the story (fluffy-puppy!brendon should not suddenly turn into sexy-showman!brendon with no warning or plausible explanation)
- The plot needs to work well enough that the writer doesn't have to resort to stupid gimmicks to keep it going in the right direction (like making all her characters randomly forget all the magic they learned over the past six years whenever it's convenient *cough, cough*) I don't care if the plot is an epic space AU with a full cast and 95 different sub-plots and intrigues or a simple "Ryan and Spencer are playing Halo in Spencer's room and then they make out." (That is a completely awesome plot, btw :-)) but it has to make sense all the way through. Direct contradictions like "I erased my parents' memories and sent them to Australia" / "I don't know any Memory Charms" are an instant *headdesk* for me. So are shoddy timelines where people end up doing stuff with people before they actually met them and such. (Or when it takes Voldemort EIGHT HOURS to zap around and check on his horcruxes in a universe where you're able to Apparate. :-))
- There needs to be some kind of interest in the story for me (aka, I want to enjoy reading it). There should be a purpose behind (like "this is supposed to be hot" or "this is supposed to be sad" or "this is a Ryan character study") This tends to go hand in hand with the above points though. A story with no defined purpose ("hot porn! hot porn with toppy!brendon \o/") will tend to ramble, forget about its own characters and what the plot was all about somewhere half-way through.
Wow. Long comment. :-)
But yeah, that pretty much sums up "well-written" for me.
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:24 pm (UTC)This is a great comment!
Consistency is a big thing for me. It's one reason I can't read a lot of the 'epic' 400 chapter fics- especially when they are WIP's and the author is making it up as he/she goes. They almost always get ridiculously lost :P
And I agree! There needs to be some sort of point- even if that point is only "Brendon is a hot top"- you should stick to showing me how that is and not ramble off into how good he is at Guitar Hero or how many Skittles he can eat :D
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:32 pm (UTC)Here, I had a mild rant about a well loved author, who I think is interesting, but doesn't write well. I replaced it with this: I think too, that an important word in the definition of 'well-written' is grace. Everything you write should come with intention and every tactic you use should be deliberate. If a paragraph is hurried and confusing, it should be reflecting your characters state of mind and their actions, it shouldn't feel like it's hurried and confusing because you ran out of words.
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:46 pm (UTC)I think that is a very good point.
I also hate when I'm reading fic and all of a sudden it just stops. O.O and they lived happily ever after the end.What?
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:38 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 04:42 pm (UTC)omg - I couldn't agree with you more. I think so many people need to lighten up sometimes!
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Date: 2009-03-03 04:47 pm (UTC)Of course all of that is extremely subjective (eta: I wish it was objective, that would make this so much easier *g*), but it's also the reason a story can be beta read by a million people so the grammar is perfect and there are zero typoes and still be completely unreadable to me.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 04:56 pm (UTC)So true! And on the flipside it's also why a story can be riddled with grammar problems and I won't notice because I'm swept up in the story!
As Jen pointed out above- there's a difference between good writing and good story!
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Date: 2009-03-03 05:10 pm (UTC)Then there is the plot and characterization that also count. The plot can be simple and still very enjoyable, or it can be complex and full of hints you only get deeper into the story, but the way I see it, there needs to be motives for the characters' actions and how they react in certain situations. The plot should be intact and flow onwards without the feeling of the author just typing it down as it comes to their mind. (Admittedly, I am guilty of doing just this most of the time, but I usually tend to have some kind of plotline ready in my head, or if not, at least I know how the fic begins and how it ends - the middle parts usually just happen.) So plot and characters are another issue that matters.
One thing that I think is wrong in the bandom or fanfic communities in general is the attitude of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Writers should be able to take constructive criticism as feedback, but most of them can't. I admit it strikes a small dent in my author's ego every time I get negative feedback, but I recover from it quickly and then think of it as a way to improve. Sure, many of the authors in bandom are young and hence unable to comprehend that the negative feedback can be good for you, too. Younger writers seem to take negative stuff more personally, as an attack towards their persona as opposed to their writing.
Okay, ~side-tracked there, sorry, but this is an issue that intrigues me a lot as well. All in all, the concept of 'well-written' is subjective. You like this fic, I like that fic and we don't necessarily like what the other likes. But I think it all roots down to good grammar, intact plotline and strong characterization (and by strong I mean the ability to keep the characters as themselves and not changing them halfway along the fic because it fits the plot or whatever). Anyway. You got me thinking about this very much, and I might actually ramble about this in my own journal later on if I come up with anything... :D
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Date: 2009-03-03 05:20 pm (UTC)I absolutely agree! And readers should be willing to give it - gently :D
Another friend of mine was almost put off writing entirely when her very first post ever was ridiculed and ripped to pieces in an anon "secrets" comm. Granted, it did have a lot of errors- but did even one person comment and offer suggestions? even the suggestion that she might need another beta? No. No one could be bothered - instead they ran off and immediately made a soul-raping comment elsewhere. - but yeah concrit and the lack thereof is kind of a whole other post LOL.
I'm glad to get people thinking! I look forward to whatever you have to say about it!
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 05:23 pm (UTC)i know i'd never post a "get me a well-written fic!" post in a seek community, because it's obviously subjective. to me, a well-written fic is about balance, i think. i honestly can't stand pretentious prose in which the use of high-flown words and difficult sentence structures feel forced. i'd rather read a very simple, straight-to-the-point story than a forced one. that being said, i sometimes catch myself thinking 'this would've been an even more awesome fic if someone else had done it' after finishing something written in a very simple style. for example, i could've liked twilight, if it hadn't been such low-key prose and every other sentence hadn't started with 'but' or 'and'. i think the general idea is nice, i just wish someone else would've worked it out because i think they could've done a better job with it. that happens with fics, too.
i also think originality is a part of ~well-writtenness - not even plot wise, just in general. i honestly don't care how often i read the same storyline, as long as there's little details in there and the portrayals of the characters feel realistic and actually thought out. it doesn't need to be overdone - overdone is, in my eyes, an absolute fic killer. writing should feel natural. i sometimes spend half an hour on one sentence, and that's fine, but it shouldn't be noticeable to the reader. not every sentence needs to be a miniature work of literature on itself.
i guess i haven't even answered your answer with this, because the more i write, the more i find out that 'well-written' for me has to do with talent of the author, and who am i to decide that someone is talented over the internet? how could i possibly judge someone over one or a few pieces of their work? i think sierra of versaemerge has talent and potential and that cassadee pope doesn't have either of the two, but how can i ever be sure of that? all i heard of her is one cd. but following this line of thought, you could never be able to make your mind up about someone... which is an interesting idea.
sorry for most probably wasting your time with this, haha! ♥
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Date: 2009-03-03 05:29 pm (UTC)I agree with basically all of it!!
I often think - wow - this would be better if someone else had written it! I have read or well, started and then skimmed through, some really horrible fics and thought it was a shame because if "___" had written this it would rock!
(Hell - I often think that about my own writing :P)
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Date: 2009-03-03 06:02 pm (UTC)That's different from liking a story though. I can tell when stories have been objectively well-written, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to especially enjoy reading it. We've all got different things that irk us. It really bugs me when people call Brendon 'Bren' in stories, but that's obviously doesn't mean that a story that does that is poorly written; it's just a pet peeve of mind.
I think that good writing is a necessary condition for making a good story. I don't think that a story can be good if it's poorly written. If a story is difficult to read because the writing is so bad (difficult meaning hard to understand, or even just annoying because of the mistakes) it doesn't matter how good the ideas are, it's not going to be a 'good' story. Maybe it can be enjoyable, but that's different from good. A lot of people enjoy ... I don't know, Paris Hilton movies, but that doesn't mean that they're actually good.
However, being well-written also isn't a sufficient condition for making a story likable. A story can be really well-written, but certain characterizations or plot devices just make my skin crawl. I can say objectively that the story is well-written, but I can also say that I don't like it.
Judging a story by how much you like it is totally valid, but I don't think that liking has anything to do with how well-written a story is (though, of course, we're all pretty biased, and I think that people are more willing to overlook mistakes in stories they like). Something can be well-written but not likable, or enjoyable but not 'good'.
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Date: 2009-03-03 06:07 pm (UTC)Exactly!! I guess that's why it confuses me in seek requests- are they asking me to give them examples of things I find technically good- or do they want suggestions they might enjoy? In the latter case I need a little more to go on than 'well-written'. :D
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Date: 2009-03-03 06:32 pm (UTC)Something else I also take into consideration is formatting, grammar and typos. Typos can easily be forgiven just as long as it's not every other word misspelled. If the formatting of the story bothers me at first sight, I will mostly click the back button. Even the authors style of writing can influence on what I think is "well-written" and what isn't.
Oh goodness, there's lots of things in my list o__o A lot of it is just tiny little things that I can easily forgive. I just take it all in and embrace it :3 ...And I just totally wrote you a novel in this comment. My bad~
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Date: 2009-03-03 06:37 pm (UTC)I think making me feel something is my number one criteria too -even if it just makes me roll my eyes because it was so silly or schmoopy :D There are days when you need that.
Delicious is def the way to go if you mem a lot of fic- it is so, so much easier to keep track of and you can actually find stuff later :D
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Date: 2009-03-03 06:51 pm (UTC)edit: another thing, even if I don't know if I will be able to explain..often I love a fic more if I love how the author's mind works, if he is able to write exctly what I want to read.. difficult to explain.
So that sometimes is more important than 'well-written', whatever this woud mean. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-03 08:21 pm (UTC)Maybe difficult to explain - but I get it ! :D
It's kind of like with the "always a girl" fic I was talking about in an earlier post. I don't like it very much - because my mind doesn't want to work that way! But someone who does think like that , who wants to read that type of fic will like that kind of fic!
(no subject)
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Date: 2009-03-03 06:59 pm (UTC)I have very specific things for what is well-written, including spelling, grammar, presentation and the actual content. And I think the beta/editing process is a big part, not one to skip.
People have been saying something can be well-written but no good writing, but I think that for it to be well-written, it has to be good writing, in the plot and sentence-structure.
I read quite a few things where the writing was okay, but the flow and acing was crap and the story didn't really make sense. Not good.
I'm quite picky when it comes to fic I read. There are a lot of stories that get recced that I just think is absolutely bad!fic and can't get through the first page. Characters have to come across as believable, so does the plot and how people act and react and so on.
And there are some authors that I think are not good, but not awful that I just can't get into. Sometimes I read a fic and it's just blah to me, nothing happens and I come away from reading it with nothing.
Also, I have to say, I agree with
And I could go on, but I basically agree with a bunch more things some people have said already about prose, authors. ;)
One more thing, I really agree with what
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Date: 2009-03-03 08:25 pm (UTC)Yes - I see your point. But a fic can have wonderful sentence structure and a working, believable plot, but still bore the hell out of me, so that is one I would call 'well-written' but not good or at least not great
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Date: 2009-03-03 10:16 pm (UTC)but to 'ask' for 'well written' is just a bit pretentious and also vague.
what makes good writing is very subjective anyway, but particularly in this genre. some people might think that a cracky premise means it's not good writing.
i tend to think that if it convinces me of the writer's intent, if the characters are compelling and make sense, if i really want to know what happens next then it will fit my definition of 'well written'. but i've read and enjoyed things that i think were pretty poor, but sort of charming. i'd hate to miss out on them because of snobbery, yk?
some things are more 'objectively' well written. there's an aesthetic beauty to the way the words are crafted.
honestly, i think that's icing.
:~)
(ftr i love potter.)
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Date: 2009-03-03 10:57 pm (UTC)Personally, I hate when people ask for 'well-written' fic recs, or if they say 'these are the only well-written fics I've read in x fandom' because it's so subjective- what you consider well-written I may not and vice versa.
I'm not sure if that makes sense- it's late here, but I thought it was interesting so many people seemed to focus on technical errors stopping something from being well-written and thought I'd ramble about my completely differing opinion. :)
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Date: 2009-03-04 12:15 am (UTC)"Well-written" is something I've been trying to pinpoint for a long time now, mostly in terms of my own writing. I find myself thinking "Am I a good writer? I must be a good writer, I thoroughly enjoy my own writing, I enjoy doing it, it must be." But I simply cannot pinpoint what it is that makes it good. And I totally feel like I'm sucking my own cock right now (lol, figurative to the max) btw, but then it is my own writing I know the best.
There are so many picky things like "can't have pages of simply dialogue where you forget who's talking" and grammar and run-on sentences that just don't work (here's an example: I consider Kerouac to be a wonderful author, but an entire book of his was run-on sentences, and while he is a good author, that was just not well-written). But all these things are picky.
I'm taking it out of fanfiction context right now, but I'm thinking about the book Naked Lunch and how it's revered as one of the greatest books of the last century, and how I respect Burroughs...but the plot was impossible to follow. I didn't really consider it to be well-written, but I do consider it to be a masterpiece. There's something to ponder.
But coming back into fanfiction, I guess it really is whatever floats your boat. I know I'm pretentious in what I read on here, but because of where I'm coming from (using slash as a means to come into myself more as a writer) that just makes sense. I dunno, I don't even think I'm making sense anymore. Now I see why everyone's comments were so long, this is so hard to answer! So to sum it all up, perspective is key and I don't think Degrassi is the the most well-made tv show of all time, but it's my absolute favorite.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-04 12:16 am (UTC)Asking for "well-written" fic though, is just lazy (lazier than usual, as far as seek comm users are concerned). And yes, pretentious. Seekers frustrate me to no end.
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-04 12:59 am (UTC)The biggest criteria for me loving a book/series - is the characters. If you can identify in some way, shape or form with at least one character, then usually you are well on your way to having something at least worth reading. It's kind of the same way with TV/movies etc. It doesn't all have to be award winning to be rewarding.
I read at least a book a day. I've been told, I consume them. So, to have a book be memorable means it has to have a unique voice. After all there are only like 13 original plots so we're all combining some or all of them when we write into something pleasing in our own way.
If you have good characters, more than likely, you will have a good story. Storytelling is about giving your audience something to experience. And in fanfic, it's not the same criteria as with publishers. You already should know what your audience wants because in many ways it's what you want. (not always but you know) You know and mostly love the main characters so you have to use your voice and vision to weave a story - and because you are passionate about it, (pun intended) then it should be able to be a good story without worrying about did I split an infinitive? blah, blah, blah. A lot of grammar is nitpicking nonsense AND it changes as we evolve.
So long as you pour your heart into a story, and try to tell the very best one you can, if the heart is there, then it transcends "the rules." Storytelling is about the author's voice.
That being said, I stand by my thoughts that there is no reason for a bunch of typos, misspelled words etc. And that will turn me off of even the most amazing voice because I don't like stumbling. Have pride in yourself and your story and let spell checker do it's work. If you are offering something to the public as a finished piece, than a few extra minutes correcting mistakes we all make, shouldn't be a question.
And it doesn't have to be all sweetness and light or nail-biting terror. If you walk away from something with any emotion, then a writer has done their job. (Frustration from crap is not a valid emotion - it should be something from the story that emotes)
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-04 01:48 am (UTC)i think it's a huge number of things. for fic, grammar/spelling/punctuation/formatting is a must for me; i'll immediately click "back" if i don't see paragraph breaks or if some other basic thing is wrong. and i'll generally stop reading if i see more than one basic spelling error. (they're/their/there, etc.) other than that, the most important thing to me is characterization, followed by just, idk, how the story is structured. organization, plot, development, complexity, language and sentence structure.
i also think there are different levels of "good." there is genuine badfic, then there is just bad fic, then there's stuff that's not really good but maybe worth skimming. then there's stuff i'll read, but doesn't really impress me. then there's Good, something worth my time, maybe worth a comment. and then there's the stuff i bookmark, the really great stuff that makes fandom worth it. and then there are those rare select few that are so incredible they make me never want to write again. :P
wow, /rambling. lol.
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Date: 2009-03-04 01:51 am (UTC)I completely agree!
and ramble away- I love long comments :D
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Date: 2009-03-04 04:33 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-04 04:37 am (UTC)For me, well written is all the basics first (fundamentals are the building blocks to fun) so grammar, stylistic devices, proper puncuation (COMMA USE!!!!) and plot advancement. Not only that, but anything that comes with basic writing, spelling, grammar, proper nouns, proper use of prepositions, etc.
On top of the basics, really WELL-WRITTEN is capturing from all angles. It may not be the fic you recommend, but this is how I see it.
Ex. Revolutionary Road.
I can admire and respect what it is, and what the message is, but when it comes straight down to it, the book is well-written, but not something I want to read again. It's got an awesome plot, awesome characterization, development, etc. But it's not my favorite thing ever. I can understand and take the meaning behind it, but it's not good
Yes?
(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-04 04:44 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2009-03-06 07:23 am (UTC)