slashxmistress | Thinky- what makes fic well written?

If a paragraph is hurried and confusing, it should be reflecting your characters state of mind and their actions, it shouldn't feel like it's hurried and confusing because you ran out of words.

I think that is a very good point.

I also hate when I'm reading fic and all of a sudden it just stops. O.O and they lived happily ever after the end.What?

t would be good writing, but not a good story!

Ooh very good point!

Nail on the head. Completely. AND you totally illustrated your point with the wording and construction of that comment. I feel as though I'm a little bit in love with you now. :-)

To me "well-written" is mostly a question of style. No awkward word choices or descriptions, overuse of adjectives or epithets, no run-on sentences and no switching POV in the middle of a paragraph. It doesn't have to be high literature kind of writing (on the contrary, I think trying too hard is what makes for a lot of awful writing) but it just needs to be... readable.

Of course all of that is extremely subjective (eta: I wish it was objective, that would make this so much easier *g*), but it's also the reason a story can be beta read by a million people so the grammar is perfect and there are zero typoes and still be completely unreadable to me.

I'm a firm believer in that.

Some people know how to tell a story and some people know how to write.

idc how well you can write, if there is no story there to pull me in and interest me, it's just a bunch of aesthetically pleasing words.

I think taste is a really big factor in this too, though. I mean, I've read fics that people have had stars in their eyes over that I consider to be really badly written. And it's not the simplicity of them at all, or the subject. There's a kind of "blind spot" when it comes to people's favourite ships sometimes that kind of overrules everything else. Like, people will not care that Brendon is changing his personality five times over as many pages or that the dialogue sounds like it was taken right out of an 18th century treatise on the British government, because Brendon and Ryan are having SEX in it, and they are IN LOVE! OMG!!! :-D

And I think those things tend to muddle the waters a little bit. lol. But yes, light-hearted fic ftw. I'll take a hundred Starbucks AU's with smiling Spencer any day of the week.

See, I couldn't agree with you less. In college English, who's going to see your work? Your teacher, your classmates. On the internet a whole load of people are going to see it.
Also, fun and entertainment or not, what your producing is essentially art, and it should be as close to your definition of perfection as it can be.

but it's also the reason a story can be beta read by a million people so the grammar is perfect and there are zero typoes and still be completely unreadable to me.

So true! And on the flipside it's also why a story can be riddled with grammar problems and I won't notice because I'm swept up in the story!

As Jen pointed out above- there's a difference between good writing and good story!

OMG yes - there is a big epic from last year that many people are still gaga over - that just makes me crazy with how all over the place and just awful it is. - But that kind of makes my point with the lightening up - no matter how horrible it is, some people obviously enjoy it - and I'm not on the Pulitzer commitee, so who am I to judge? Obviously people must be getting something out of it!

But then again I would NEVER rec it or even hint that it's good writing because it's not.

Also, fun and entertainment or not, what your producing is essentially art, and it should be as close to your definition of perfection as it can be

See- I don't agree with THAT. Fanfiction is not necessarily art. It certainly CAN be- but it isn't just by it's definition.

If you're going to that picky about it - you could go further and say that people shouldn't even make journal entries that aren't obsessively edited. Where do you draw the line?

You can certainly choose not to read anything that isn't college English good- because you're not interested/don't get anything from it, but I don't think you should put that judgement on others.

hmm. I don't really know what to say that hasn't already been said here, but as for myself, I like the fic to be at least mostly grammatically intact and free of errors (a few here and there won't irk me off, but if the grammatical errors become so continuous that it makes reading harder, I usually hit backbutton.) So grammar is definitely one part of it.

Then there is the plot and characterization that also count. The plot can be simple and still very enjoyable, or it can be complex and full of hints you only get deeper into the story, but the way I see it, there needs to be motives for the characters' actions and how they react in certain situations. The plot should be intact and flow onwards without the feeling of the author just typing it down as it comes to their mind. (Admittedly, I am guilty of doing just this most of the time, but I usually tend to have some kind of plotline ready in my head, or if not, at least I know how the fic begins and how it ends - the middle parts usually just happen.) So plot and characters are another issue that matters.

One thing that I think is wrong in the bandom or fanfic communities in general is the attitude of "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all." Writers should be able to take constructive criticism as feedback, but most of them can't. I admit it strikes a small dent in my author's ego every time I get negative feedback, but I recover from it quickly and then think of it as a way to improve. Sure, many of the authors in bandom are young and hence unable to comprehend that the negative feedback can be good for you, too. Younger writers seem to take negative stuff more personally, as an attack towards their persona as opposed to their writing.

Okay, ~side-tracked there, sorry, but this is an issue that intrigues me a lot as well. All in all, the concept of 'well-written' is subjective. You like this fic, I like that fic and we don't necessarily like what the other likes. But I think it all roots down to good grammar, intact plotline and strong characterization (and by strong I mean the ability to keep the characters as themselves and not changing them halfway along the fic because it fits the plot or whatever). Anyway. You got me thinking about this very much, and I might actually ramble about this in my own journal later on if I come up with anything... :D

As Jen pointed out above- there's a difference between good writing and good story!

Yes, definitely! I think for me, and judging by the cries for good writing a lot of others, the problem is that bad writing just distracts from the story no matter how brilliant it is. If it throws me out the story too much I always hit the backbutton.

Or sometimes, with some of the fic I almost get the impression that the writing is getting in the way of a story that could essentially be awesome. Like say, someone is trying to write Brendon/Ryan and you can tell from the summary and plot etc. that Brendon's supposed to be a good boyfriend and it's supposed to be happy and angst-free, but the writing is bad and actually makes him come off as a raging psycho.

but the writing is bad and actually makes him come off as a raging psycho.

LMAO! I think I've read that one!! :D (probably read several of them actually D:)

Writers should be able to take constructive criticism as feedback

I absolutely agree! And readers should be willing to give it - gently :D
Another friend of mine was almost put off writing entirely when her very first post ever was ridiculed and ripped to pieces in an anon "secrets" comm. Granted, it did have a lot of errors- but did even one person comment and offer suggestions? even the suggestion that she might need another beta? No. No one could be bothered - instead they ran off and immediately made a soul-raping comment elsewhere. - but yeah concrit and the lack thereof is kind of a whole other post LOL.

I'm glad to get people thinking! I look forward to whatever you have to say about it!

is it 'well-written' because you like it? if you don't like it, does that make it not well-written? no. i can really enjoy fics that i don't consider well-written, and not every fic i consider well-written i actually like.
i know i'd never post a "get me a well-written fic!" post in a seek community, because it's obviously subjective. to me, a well-written fic is about balance, i think. i honestly can't stand pretentious prose in which the use of high-flown words and difficult sentence structures feel forced. i'd rather read a very simple, straight-to-the-point story than a forced one. that being said, i sometimes catch myself thinking 'this would've been an even more awesome fic if someone else had done it' after finishing something written in a very simple style. for example, i could've liked twilight, if it hadn't been such low-key prose and every other sentence hadn't started with 'but' or 'and'. i think the general idea is nice, i just wish someone else would've worked it out because i think they could've done a better job with it. that happens with fics, too.
i also think originality is a part of ~well-writtenness - not even plot wise, just in general. i honestly don't care how often i read the same storyline, as long as there's little details in there and the portrayals of the characters feel realistic and actually thought out. it doesn't need to be overdone - overdone is, in my eyes, an absolute fic killer. writing should feel natural. i sometimes spend half an hour on one sentence, and that's fine, but it shouldn't be noticeable to the reader. not every sentence needs to be a miniature work of literature on itself.
i guess i haven't even answered your answer with this, because the more i write, the more i find out that 'well-written' for me has to do with talent of the author, and who am i to decide that someone is talented over the internet? how could i possibly judge someone over one or a few pieces of their work? i think sierra of versaemerge has talent and potential and that cassadee pope doesn't have either of the two, but how can i ever be sure of that? all i heard of her is one cd. but following this line of thought, you could never be able to make your mind up about someone... which is an interesting idea.
sorry for most probably wasting your time with this, haha! ♥

Oh no- that's not a waste of time!

I agree with basically all of it!!
I often think - wow - this would be better if someone else had written it! I have read or well, started and then skimmed through, some really horrible fics and thought it was a shame because if "___" had written this it would rock!
(Hell - I often think that about my own writing :P)

A journal is exactly that a journal, a fanfiction is a story, it's something you've produced, not just your train of thought.
We see fanfiction writers all the time, who are amazing writers and get given comments telling them that they should be authors, why shouldn't everyone live up to that standard?
But, yeah. I get it, yeah, I get it, that fanfiction is just that, writing is fun, sure here's your favourite tv show, film, book, band, continue to the story, go for it. I just don't read anything that feels half-heartedly nothing more than 'fun'.
Sometimes I feel that if you're writing fanfiction, it's because you like writing. You want to get better, why not aspire to turn your fanfiction into art.

why shouldn't everyone live up to that standard?
because it's not a competition

if you're writing fanfiction, it's because you like writing. You want to get better, why not aspire to turn your fanfiction into art.

A lot of writers feel that way, they really do . But a lot of them don't.They just see it as a way to fantasize out loud or to share lulz and I don't think we have a right to judge them for that.
We definitely have a right to scroll right past though :D

I think that well-written implies all of the objective measures of goodness. Like- everyone can agree that there's a difference between there/they're/their. Grammar and spelling aren't matters of opinion. People have different thresholds as to what will end up throwing them out of a story, but overall it's completely objective. In terms of plot and characterization, I don't think it's quite as easy to reach a consensus, but overall I think that people are probably all able to agree on stories that are well-written: good grammar/spelling, good characterization, good plot.

That's different from liking a story though. I can tell when stories have been objectively well-written, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to especially enjoy reading it. We've all got different things that irk us. It really bugs me when people call Brendon 'Bren' in stories, but that's obviously doesn't mean that a story that does that is poorly written; it's just a pet peeve of mind.

I think that good writing is a necessary condition for making a good story. I don't think that a story can be good if it's poorly written. If a story is difficult to read because the writing is so bad (difficult meaning hard to understand, or even just annoying because of the mistakes) it doesn't matter how good the ideas are, it's not going to be a 'good' story. Maybe it can be enjoyable, but that's different from good. A lot of people enjoy ... I don't know, Paris Hilton movies, but that doesn't mean that they're actually good.

However, being well-written also isn't a sufficient condition for making a story likable. A story can be really well-written, but certain characterizations or plot devices just make my skin crawl. I can say objectively that the story is well-written, but I can also say that I don't like it.

Judging a story by how much you like it is totally valid, but I don't think that liking has anything to do with how well-written a story is (though, of course, we're all pretty biased, and I think that people are more willing to overlook mistakes in stories they like). Something can be well-written but not likable, or enjoyable but not 'good'.

A lot of people enjoy ... I don't know, Paris Hilton movies, but that doesn't mean that they're actually good.

Exactly!! I guess that's why it confuses me in seek requests- are they asking me to give them examples of things I find technically good- or do they want suggestions they might enjoy? In the latter case I need a little more to go on than 'well-written'. :D

For me, I happen to think a well-written story is one that can actually get me to feel something. If it makes me smil and hop the best for the characters or tears my heart right out of my chest, I count it as a win. Another is if I can picture everything in my head as I read it. This is seriously a huge one for me, which is why my memories are so huge! I should probably get myself a delicious account or something...

Something else I also take into consideration is formatting, grammar and typos. Typos can easily be forgiven just as long as it's not every other word misspelled. If the formatting of the story bothers me at first sight, I will mostly click the back button. Even the authors style of writing can influence on what I think is "well-written" and what isn't.

Oh goodness, there's lots of things in my list o__o A lot of it is just tiny little things that I can easily forgive. I just take it all in and embrace it :3 ...And I just totally wrote you a novel in this comment. My bad~

Ahahaha sorry, I like to lurk entries and read comments. I just want to say that this comment gets an A+ from me. I agree with a lot of it and I'm glad that you were able to put words to a lot of my thoughts that I didn't type out.

♥

Don't apologize for commenting! That was the whole point of the post! To have a conversation!

I think making me feel something is my number one criteria too -even if it just makes me roll my eyes because it was so silly or schmoopy :D There are days when you need that.

Delicious is def the way to go if you mem a lot of fic- it is so, so much easier to keep track of and you can actually find stuff later :D

I couldn't agree more with you, I love a fic if it gives me something, if it makes me feel, cry, laugh, want more, etc... and some authors are better in doing this than others, some fics really touched me more than others.. :) Plus, I'm italian and my english it's not so good so I couldn't understand if it's perfect in a fic or not, lol ;)
edit: another thing, even if I don't know if I will be able to explain..often I love a fic more if I love how the author's mind works, if he is able to write exctly what I want to read.. difficult to explain.
So that sometimes is more important than 'well-written', whatever this woud mean. ;)

Ooh, this is an an awesome discussion topic! :D

I have very specific things for what is well-written, including spelling, grammar, presentation and the actual content. And I think the beta/editing process is a big part, not one to skip.

People have been saying something can be well-written but no good writing, but I think that for it to be well-written, it has to be good writing, in the plot and sentence-structure.

I read quite a few things where the writing was okay, but the flow and acing was crap and the story didn't really make sense. Not good.

I'm quite picky when it comes to fic I read. There are a lot of stories that get recced that I just think is absolutely bad!fic and can't get through the first page. Characters have to come across as believable, so does the plot and how people act and react and so on.

And there are some authors that I think are not good, but not awful that I just can't get into. Sometimes I read a fic and it's just blah to me, nothing happens and I come away from reading it with nothing.

Also, I have to say, I agree with

lastchanceache about how authors put fic out, it should have a certain level of presentation for the public.

And I could go on, but I basically agree with a bunch more things some people have said already about prose, authors. ;)

One more thing, I really agree with what

disarm_d said about the more you like a story, the more you're willing to overlook things. I can overlook some spelling and grammar mistakes, but that's probably as much as, for fave's. :D

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